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Originally Posted by Kuhb

I'm not even American. But from where I'm sitting, candidates who are proposing what amounts to a Scandinavian-style welfare state, or New Deal-esque economic reforms are not part of an 'irrational cult'.

i'm in favor of a social safety net actually. personally i prefer to have my needs serviced my markets instead of government, and i don't want to be in the hands of a nanny state, but i understand there are market failures where government needs to intervene, and it's great to have mechanisms to prevent misery.

however, the welfare state is heavily dependent on the high productivity of capitalist economies. so, arguing for the welfare state in opposition to capitalism is sort of suicidal. no? when you have no wealth, all you spread is poverty.

the chinese understood that, and while their system has serious problems, at least they no longer have famines.

Originally Posted by Kuhb

Liberalism's insistence that they're 'the adults in the room', while wanting to maintain the economic status-quo (which not only brought about the current state of affairs, but also leaves us utterly unprepared for potential economic and global catastrophes), comes across as far more cult-like than anything Warren or Sanders are proposing. It just sounds like you want your neoliberalism with a nicer flavour.

yes, i want a nicer flavor. a repair, not an overthrow. the status quo is pretty fucking good. it's certainly not perfect, but why throw out the baby with the bathwater? it makes no sense to me. we live in times of great abundance.

potential economic catastrophes? again look at the famines caused by communism. look at all the past civilizations that collapsed.

capitalism is not immune to catastrophe but it has the most sophisticated mechanisms to date. i think we've learned a ton since the great depression.

Originally Posted by Kuhb

Coming from an outside the US perspective, it comes across as essentially mental gymnastics performed so that, whatever happens, you don't have to think about class politics.

well, i am starting to think that dealing with contemporary politics in terms of marxist categories is erroneous, and that for "workers" to oppose "capital" is again suicidal. the entrepreneurial function is essential in a successful economy.

and labor can be capital. in this country we have worker-owned businesses and cooperatives, especially for some reason in the agricultural front (i have not investigated why). my pantry is full of their stuff.

also-- the worker is not just a worker. the worker is also the consumer. to think only of how you make your money and not how you choose to spend it is very warped and just plain blind.

there are also consumer co-ops btw: i'm a member of a food co-op, an electric utility co-op, and my state has a health co-op that provides insurance under obamacare.

and last-- i do not think of profit as exploitation. thanks to comparative advantage and the division of labor both parties can profit when they trade. happens in nature and we call it symbiosis.

so yes, we just need a fix, from where i'm sitting. tweak some tax rates, expand some services, find the right balance between the public and private sector, keep markets competitive, and we can keep prospering for a very long time. in my opinion, of course. this is only as far as i can see.