[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ni'k

fuck that, those guys are pussys. cia, nsa, fbi, homeland security... pssh, whatevs. those sensitive little elderflowers wont do shit, they'll just mince around in their frocks until their flower arranging class starts. fragile little pussywillows.

 

I think they found you..

[ni'k]

wut, no those elderberries ain't got a clue about my secret mountain base. hell its not even on a mountain its so secret. they can invade ireland all they want but they'll never find it.

[ni'k]

i'll be sittin there munchin' tayto's while they invade the country, sendin my minions to suicide bomb them, chillin with some frasier, sendin' vhs messages to rte.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ni'k

wut, no those elderberries ain't got a clue about my secret mountain base. hell its not even on a mountain its so secret. they can invade ireland all they want but they'll never find it.

ha! This is why I love your posts.


I see you learned from the success of the Vietnamese and even the Eritreans, who used secret tunnels to win their defensive wars of attrition. While the Ethiopian Air Force was bombing away, the EPLF was hiding safe and secure in their elaborate tunnel systems, and after 50 years they won their war of independence. Too bad they have not done anything positive with it, and instead provoke war and conflict across East Africa

[ni'k]

Yep, same thing that's happening to Iraq already happened to Northern Ireland. Army invaded, couldn't defeat the locals in an urban enviroment, people can just shoot and bomb you then run and hide. In NI they didn't use secret tunnels, just garden hopped or hid inside.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ni'k

Yep, same thing that's happening to Iraq already happened to Northern Ireland. Army invaded, couldn't defeat the locals in an urban enviroment, people can just shoot and bomb you then run and hide. In NI they didn't use secret tunnels, just garden hopped or hid inside.

ahhh The Troubles.. good times for revolutionaries.

I wish my folks here in Los Angeles would see the new rising son looming in the horizon and join up the movement against the feudal landlords who run things

hulum lehulum'sewoch yisten , l'enyan atyistenemu. (lit. All-things for all-peoples let them receive it, For ourselves, let us receive nothing!)

 

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

ahhh The Troubles.. good times for revolutionaries.

I wish my folks here in Los Angeles would see the new rising son looming in the horizon and join up the movement against the feudal landlords who run things

If you can, you should try and read this. Very interesting stuff:

 

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

im waiting for opponents of the iraq war to explain what they think would have happened if the war hadnt happend. But yknow, you can always rely on comfortable people to throw around conspiracy theories before they speak to the reality of provincialism

This poses a massive question regarding what should and what can be done about such regimes. I'm convinced the Iraq war was a mistake because it's shifted things from Iraq being a once quantifiable, largely local (and in my view quite controlable) threat to an unquantifiable, potentially international (and in my view quite uncontrolable) one. Saddam was largely isolated within the middle east and so was limited in what he could actually achieve, at least compared with what a more fully integrated fundamentalist Iraq could achieve as part of a far greater network. War is never about altruism, it's about weighing up threats, and as such can never be deemed successful, or even just, if that threat only increases as a consequence of it.

The further problem of course is that because Iraq has been such a disaster, it'll make it far harder for the west to engage in more just and necessary interventions in the future.

[Lurker]

You make a good point but I still wonder sort of effect the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have had on the protest movement in Iran. I think it must have at least made them more aware of world outside that is ready to welcome them if only the government wasn't hostile and dictatorial. Especially with fundamentalist groups such as the Taleban. Any attempt at overthrowing Ahmadinejad's government wouldn't be possible because of of how this would weaken the country leaving it open to ideological driven outsiders such as the Taleban or even Saddam's Iraq. A revolution in a country is the best time to attack it if you want to increase your territory. I think the protest movement in Iraq is a serious threat to Ahmadinejad's government and I don't think this would have developed without a safer, more democratic middle east. The wars in Iran and Afghanistan have shown to them that this a time for change.


By the way Demonrail, I was going to rep you for this thread but I STILL can't rep you.

[ni'k]

ARGH. THAT'S THE STUPIDEST POST YET.

the best thing about the revolutionary movement in Iran is that they DON'T WANT WESTERN LIBERAL DEMOCRACY AND THEY ARE NOT RIOTING BECAUSE THAT EVIL OLD SUPREME LEADER WON'T LET THEM WEAR SHORT SKIRTS AND HAVE MCDONALDS AND IPODS. THEY WANT SOMETHING ELSE.

how the fuck does a war in iraq make them "more aware of the outside world" do you really think they are some sort of tribe of primitives who lived alone far in the mid east with no contact with us modern civilised sorts?

ONLY SOMEONE WITH NO CONCEPTION OF IRAN BEYOND WESTERN MEDIA REPORTS ABOUT HOW THEY USED TWITTER TO SPREAD THE REVOLUTION COULD POST SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I'm sorry. But what the fuck.

"I think the protest movement in Iraq is a serious threat to Ahmadinejad's government and I don't think this would have developed without a safer, more democratic middle east." WHAT THE FUCK PLANET ARE YOU ON? SINCE THE INVASION OF IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN THE MIDDLE EAST HAS GOTTEN PRETTY FUCKING UNSTABLE. HOW HAS THE INVASION MADE IT SAFER IN ANY WAY?

I'm sorry but you actually think the Iranians saw the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and said "well shit, look at how well that's going, time we get ourselves up to speed with modernity and ditch the turbans and start using electricity and stop sacrificing goats to allah!"

It's ironic that your conception of the Iranian people does not extend beyond a vastly misrepresented and shallow stereotype that you probably gathered from stories planted in the western media by American intelligence agencies to prepare the population for a future invasion, and you say the Iranians need democracy!

In their stupidity and hubris, the neo con cabal that orchestrated the invasion thought they'd be in and out of iraq and afghanistan in no time, and move swiftly onto Iran. They have no military bases there and it's from a strategic point they want it for control of the region and to transport oil across. The Iranians know this, they know that what happened in Iraq is what could happen to them. To suggest that this would make them more open to the west is absurd. There are people in Iran, as their are in the West, who are aware of the frightened, violent and sadistic patriarchs in both their governments and the evil they commit. You seem to suggest that the Iranians need a revolution, but we in the West don't. Because we have democracy. Which means we have freedom. Our leaders bestow it on us! It's called democracy because the people in charge give it to us! If only those poor middle eastern people could have freedom given to them too. I can just picture you back in 04 strolling thru Crawford ranch talkin' politics with George.

[dale_gribble]

i thought Lurker was joking.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ni'k

ARGH. THAT'S THE STUPIDEST POST YET.

the best thing about the revolutionary movement in Iran is that they DON'T WANT WESTERN LIBERAL DEMOCRACY AND THEY ARE NOT RIOTING BECAUSE THAT EVIL OLD SUPREME LEADER WON'T LET THEM WEAR SHORT SKIRTS AND HAVE MCDONALDS AND IPODS. THEY WANT SOMETHING ELSE.




WHAT THE FUCK PLANET ARE YOU ON? SINCE THE INVASION OF IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN THE MIDDLE EAST HAS GOTTEN PRETTY FUCKING UNSTABLE. HOW HAS THE INVASION MADE IT SAFER IN ANY WAY?

thank you ni'k, joking or not that was a necessary response. in regards to the US invasions and occupations of the Middle East, it is as horrifying a disaster as the Crusades.. there are millions and millions of refugees fleeing the region year after year.. untold destruction.. crippled economies.. bodies piling up in the hundreds of thousands... how could the US expect to do any good? I think Albert Pike's conspiracy of a genocidal Third World War in the Middle East is coming to fruition..



"tell the children the truth." bob marley

[Genteel Death]

 

[tesla69]

A book just released in the United States, detailing exhaustive interviews with now-retired US intelligence personnel who had direct knowledge of the 1951 French events, charges that the until-now unexplained "mass insanity" in the remote village were, rather, a top-secret CIA experiment conducted under the code-name Operation Span. Operation Span was a part of Project MK/NAOMI, itself an adjunct project to the more notorious Project MK/ULTRA, as in "ultra-top secret." The book, A Terrible Mistake: The Murder of Frank Olson and the CIA's Secret Cold War Experiments, by investigative journalist H.P. Albarelli Jr. documents that the Pont-St.-Esprit outbreak in 1951 was the result of a covert LSD aerosol experiment directed by the US Army's top-secret Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick, Maryland. Albarelli notes that the scientists who produced the bogus cover-up explanations of contaminated bread and or mercury poisoning to deflect from the real source of the events worked for the Sandoz Pharmaceutical Company, which was then secretly supplying both the US Army and CIA with LSD for research.

A French newspaper at the time of the bizarre events wrote, "It is neither Shakespeare nor Edgar Poe. It is, alas, the sad reality all around Pont-St.-Esprit and its environs, where terrifying scenes of hallucinations are taking place. They are scenes straight out of the Middle Ages, scenes of horror and pathos, full of sinister shadows."
The US Time magazine, whose publisher, Henry Luce was closely tied to CIA propaganda activities in the 1950's wrote, "Among the stricken, delirium rose: patients thrashed wildly on their beds, screaming that red flowers were blossoming from their bodies, that their heads had turned to molten lead. Pont-Saint-Esprit's hospital reported four attempts at suicide." As Albarelli notes, a Department of Justice website on the dangers of LSD states that in the early 1950s, "the Sandoz Chemical Company went as far as promoting LSD as a potential secret chemical warfare weapon to the US Government. Their main selling point in this was that a small amount in a main water supply or sprayed in the air could disorient and turn psychotic an entire company of soldiers leaving them harmless and unable to fight." He claims that the CIA entertained a number of proposals from American scientists concerning placing a large amount of LSD into the reservoir of a medium-to-large city, but, according to former agency officials, "the experiment was never approved due to the unexpected number of deaths during the operation in France."

Indeed, Albarelli has discovered once secret FBI documents that reveal that the Fort Detrick's Special Operations Division, a year prior to the Pont St. Esprit experiment, had targeted New York City's subway system for a similar experiment. States an August 1950 bureau memo, "[The] BW [biological warfare] experiments to be conducted by representatives of the Department of the Army in the New York Subway System in September, 1950, have been indefinitely postponed." The memo goes on to cite FBI concerns about "poisoning of food plants" and the "poisoning of the water supply" of large cities in the U.S. In an interview with this author, Albarelli described how he developed the shocking details of the CIA secret drug programs: "My first tip-off was a 1954 CIA document that detailed an encounter between an official of the Sandoz chemical company (the producers of LSD) and a CIA official in which 'the secret of Pont St. Esprit' was referenced. The Sandoz official went on to say, 'It was not the ergot at all.'"

Albarelli says he then obtained through the Freedom of Information Act a partially redacted 1955 CIA report entitled, A CIA Study of LSD-25. "That seemingly comprehensive report contained detailed information on the manufacture, supply, and use of LSD and LSD-type products worldwide. However, nearly its entire section on France and Pont St. Esprit were blacked out." Albarelli requested an un-redacted copy but CIA officials refused to provide one.

He continued, "Then I came across a letter written by a Federal Bureau of Narcotics agent who was working secretly for the CIA; this was George Hunter White, who ran the CIA's New York City safe house in 1951-1954. White's letter referenced the Pont St. Esprit experiment. At that point, 5 years into my investigation, I began interviewing former Army biochemists who became very evasive and refused to talk about their work in France. Finally two former intelligence employees confirmed the experiment took place under the auspices of the Army's Special Operations Division and with CIA funding."http://www.rense.com/general89/50s.htm

[SONIC GAIL]

great post tesla!!!!!! Very interesting the CIA sucks

My view on "the war" is this. I think we need to leave. We should have never been over there in the first place. But when we do leave, we better be ready for a giant backlash. The country is broken still and we will leave it that way and basically tell them it's not our problem and to deal with it. They will think "Those Americans came over here, made a big mess and are leaving us stranded, just like we had expected them to do" This is going to cause even more tension between the middle east and the western world. There is no good choice to make when a wrong choice began the process.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by tesla69

A book just released in the United States, detailing exhaustive interviews with now-retired US intelligence personnel who had direct knowledge of the 1951 French events, charges that the until-now unexplained "mass insanity" in the remote village were, rather, a top-secret CIA experiment conducted under the code-name Operation Span. Operation Span was a part of Project MK/NAOMI, itself an adjunct project to the more notorious Project MK/ULTRA, as in "ultra-top secret." The book, A Terrible Mistake: The Murder of Frank Olson and the CIA's Secret Cold War Experiments, by investigative journalist H.P. Albarelli Jr. documents that the Pont-St.-Esprit outbreak in 1951 was the result of a covert LSD aerosol experiment directed by the US Army's top-secret Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick, Maryland. Albarelli notes that the scientists who produced the bogus cover-up explanations of contaminated bread and or mercury poisoning to deflect from the real source of the events worked for the Sandoz Pharmaceutical Company, which was then secretly supplying both the US Army and CIA with LSD for research.

A French newspaper at the time of the bizarre events wrote, "It is neither Shakespeare nor Edgar Poe. It is, alas, the sad reality all around Pont-St.-Esprit and its environs, where terrifying scenes of hallucinations are taking place. They are scenes straight out of the Middle Ages, scenes of horror and pathos, full of sinister shadows."
The US Time magazine, whose publisher, Henry Luce was closely tied to CIA propaganda activities in the 1950's wrote, "Among the stricken, delirium rose: patients thrashed wildly on their beds, screaming that red flowers were blossoming from their bodies, that their heads had turned to molten lead. Pont-Saint-Esprit's hospital reported four attempts at suicide." As Albarelli notes, a Department of Justice website on the dangers of LSD states that in the early 1950s, "the Sandoz Chemical Company went as far as promoting LSD as a potential secret chemical warfare weapon to the US Government. Their main selling point in this was that a small amount in a main water supply or sprayed in the air could disorient and turn psychotic an entire company of soldiers leaving them harmless and unable to fight." He claims that the CIA entertained a number of proposals from American scientists concerning placing a large amount of LSD into the reservoir of a medium-to-large city, but, according to former agency officials, "the experiment was never approved due to the unexpected number of deaths during the operation in France."

Indeed, Albarelli has discovered once secret FBI documents that reveal that the Fort Detrick's Special Operations Division, a year prior to the Pont St. Esprit experiment, had targeted New York City's subway system for a similar experiment. States an August 1950 bureau memo, "[The] BW [biological warfare] experiments to be conducted by representatives of the Department of the Army in the New York Subway System in September, 1950, have been indefinitely postponed." The memo goes on to cite FBI concerns about "poisoning of food plants" and the "poisoning of the water supply" of large cities in the U.S. In an interview with this author, Albarelli described how he developed the shocking details of the CIA secret drug programs: "My first tip-off was a 1954 CIA document that detailed an encounter between an official of the Sandoz chemical company (the producers of LSD) and a CIA official in which 'the secret of Pont St. Esprit' was referenced. The Sandoz official went on to say, 'It was not the ergot at all.'"

Albarelli says he then obtained through the Freedom of Information Act a partially redacted 1955 CIA report entitled, A CIA Study of LSD-25. "That seemingly comprehensive report contained detailed information on the manufacture, supply, and use of LSD and LSD-type products worldwide. However, nearly its entire section on France and Pont St. Esprit were blacked out." Albarelli requested an un-redacted copy but CIA officials refused to provide one.

He continued, "Then I came across a letter written by a Federal Bureau of Narcotics agent who was working secretly for the CIA; this was George Hunter White, who ran the CIA's New York City safe house in 1951-1954. White's letter referenced the Pont St. Esprit experiment. At that point, 5 years into my investigation, I began interviewing former Army biochemists who became very evasive and refused to talk about their work in France. Finally two former intelligence employees confirmed the experiment took place under the auspices of the Army's Special Operations Division and with CIA funding."http://www.rense.com/general89/50s.htm

Very interestying stuff. It ties in to some degree with a lot of what suchfriends has talked about in the past, regarding those covert programmes in the 60s and 70s that facilitated the spread of hard drugs within major ghetto areas.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Drug money= CIA war-chest

[demonrail666]

What I found most interesting about Tesla's post wasn't the fact that government agencies were thinking about incorporating hard drugs into military tactics but the way companies like Sandoz were actively promoting LSD to them as 'a potential secret chemical warfare weapon'. I didn't realise Sandoz was an established company. Naive I know but I'd somehow always imagined Sandoz as more of an 'underground' set up. Apparantly not.

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

What's most interesting about Tesla's post isn't the fact that government agencies were contemplating incorporating hard drugs into military tactics but the way companies like Sandoz were actively promoting LSD to them as 'a potential secret chemical warfare weapon'. I didn't realise Sandoz was an established company. I'd always imagined it as more of an 'underground' set up. Apparantly not.

The drug companies are still doing some fucked up shit.

[demonrail666]

Yeah, I was speaking more specifically about Sandoz though. I just looked them up and they were far more a part of the 'establishment' than I'd previously realised. I'm blaming my confusion on Amon Duul II's 'Sandoz in the Rain'. Bloody Krauts.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

What I found most interesting about Tesla's post wasn't the fact that government agencies were thinking about incorporating hard drugs into military tactics but the way companies like Sandoz were actively promoting LSD to them as 'a potential secret chemical warfare weapon'. I didn't realise Sandoz was an established company. Naive I know but I'd somehow always imagined Sandoz as more of an 'underground' set up. Apparantly not.

Remember the US learned a lot of secrets from the Nazis, who for example put out contract bids for lethal gases for the concentration camps to which Degussa's Zyklon-B crystals won the bid. how horrifying a prospect..